How 'Project Safe' Works to End Domestic Violence Through Intervention, Education, and Support

Today we interview Joan Prittie. Joan is Executive Director of Project Safe, a non-profit organization that is working to end domestic violence. Project Safe believes that everyone deserves to be safe in their homes and in their relationships, and that love shouldn’t come at a cost of abuse or control.

To support Project Safe and discover more ways to help, visit: 
https://www.project-safe.org/

To learn more about the show, view transcripts, and more visit:
https://www.actsofimpact.com

Special thanks to Joan and the Project Safe team. Music by Alex Grohls.

Transcript

Nicholas Hill  0:00  
You're listening to acts of impact the show where we interview those who are making a positive difference in the world around us. I'm your host, Nicholas Hill. And today's guest is Joan Prittie. Joan is Executive Director of Project Safe, a nonprofit organization that is working to end domestic violence. Project Safe believes that everyone deserves to be safe in their homes and in their relationships. And that love shouldn't come at a cost of abuse or control. Let's get started. Joan, welcome to the show. 

Joan Prittie  0:45  
Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. 

Nicholas Hill  0:47  
It's so great to have you. And I think this is an incredibly important topic. And, Joan, I would love to hear what some of the challenges are, that your organization is working to solve? Where do we currently sit? When it comes to the problem of domestic violence? What are some things that we might want to know? 

Joan Prittie  1:08  
Sure, well, you know, some of the problems of domestic violence, our long standing ones, we can go all the way back to 753 BC and find written down references to a man's absolute right to use physical force against his wife and children. They were called the laws of chastisement part of the doctrine of Potter familia in ancient Rome. And those things have been passed down for many years, and we wound up inheriting those things in the US. And so some of this stuff is just long standing. And we only have about 40 odd years of thinking that this is a problem we need to try to solve, right that this is a problem. First of all, that this is not the way people should be treated. And I should say even though historically, we tend to view this as violence against women, we know that domestic violence affects people of all genders and identities. So it's exclusively about victimizing women, but so we only have about 40 odd years of thinking this is a problem. And we ought to societally do something about it. And in that time, we still have some of the same issues, things about shame and stigma and underreporting and those kinds of things that that are still still happening to this day. And we've tried to tackle these as a movement, trying to raise awareness, trying to understanding that those issues are still there. We've certainly made some progress and things like law enforcement response, laws that are available to protect people who are experiencing domestic violence. Certainly, again, laws which have improved the rights of women, especially since the 1970s, here in the US have made a big difference for people's ability to get out of the situation. More recently, we've done an increasingly better job at educating folks about violence in same sex, intimate partnerships of violence against men and so forth. And so we're doing better on that front. But some newer challenges we're facing are things like the impact of technology, on people's ability to abuse one another. You can call it digital abuse or tech enabled abuse, but it affects every other way that we might think of somebody abusing another person. All right, when we think of forms of violence within a relationship, we think of things like physical abuse. All right, punching kicking, slapping using weapons, we think of emotional abuse, whether that's gaslighting or blaming or minimizing or humiliating someone we think of sexual abuse. We think of coercive control, rule making preventing someone from doing things they've got a right to do or forcing someone to do things, they've got a right to refuse. Each one of those kinds of abuse can be done even more effectively. With the aid of technology, right in a virtual space and our lives are so much online, you can't simply tell somebody will just don't go online, just don't operate that way. But whatever it is, we can stalk people can be stalked more easily monitored, more easily threatened more easily. They can be sexually harassed and exploited more easily online. They can have their reputation ruined, online that can be financially harmed and abused. And so that's certainly a newer thing that project safe and our movement at large is really having to address

Nicholas Hill  5:00  
I can imagine with the anonymity that technology enables for abusers, that they can use that anonymity to send out this horrific stuff in a way that that is less consequential than if they did that in public in front of a large group or something to that effect. 

Joan Prittie  5:22  
Sure. And I think that with particularly younger people, experiencing bullying, people can get a taste of that power, right, a taste of that, that ability to harm someone else, and make themselves feel more important in that process. And you can see people doing that and getting better at it kind of perfecting it. You know, we sometimes kind of joke, roll our eyes in our work that like, there's got to be a handbook somewhere, right? There's things that it seems like all abusers know how to do when they know right where that line is, they know just something crossed the line to actually being a criminal act of harassing communication or a criminal act of being in there just inside of that. The thing is, there are robots, there are things on the dark web, there are places where people can go and learn how to engage in this behavior without getting caught, or by minimizing their likelihood of getting caught. 

Nicholas Hill  6:23  
Have you seen in the last couple of years that the challenges you're referring to, with the changes that have come from the pandemic right COVID-19 hit in March of 2020, we started to see that ramp up lots of changes to our daily lives in our working lives. Have you seen any trending changes in the work that you're doing since that time period? 

Joan Prittie  6:49  
Yeah, one of the things that we saw, again, Project safe, but also more broadly as a movement in the pandemic is large increases in reported rates of domestic violence. Whether that and when we say reported domestic violence, there's not one way to do that, right, we can look at law enforcement reports, calls and contacts to domestic violence organizations, there's different ways of looking at that. But what we saw pretty broadly was large increases in domestic violence activity. And I think you've got a couple of things going on something that was unique to the pandemic, of course, early on were rounds or shelter in place, orders in a lot of communities, which had folks really more round the clock with their families, which may include an abusive partner, and then lots of places being closed and perhaps less accessible. And even if they're accessible, say online through a chat or website that may still not feel like something people could access right safely if they're stuck at home with someone. So you had greater proximity, greater opportunities. I think in that regard, that was one thing. Another thing, though, is just with all of the changes that occurred in the pandemic, and the stresses that are there, you see those increased rates. In a lot of ways. This reminds me of the Great Recession. I know locally, in Athens, Georgia, where I am, we had a really large spike. In domestic violence homicides, we we often go years without having a intimate partner homicide in our community. And we had several handfuls over about an 18 month period, it was really frightening. And what we see we've not seen as many domestic violence homicides, thank God in our community, but we've seen many more high lethality, high severity cases where someone could have been killed, they're hospitalized, they're severely injured as a result of the attack. And this is something that we see around the world that when the world hurts people hurt at home, when there's economic recession, that severe when there's a natural disaster happening when there's a global pandemic, when there's war or political oppression, you can see that in those areas where that's happening, rates of domestic violence increase, and more severe domestic violence happening. And so we've certainly seen that trend over the last couple of years to 

Nicholas Hill  9:22  
you talk about the effects of the world on the home. And I want to talk a little bit about the converse of that as well the effects of domestic violence or abuse within the home and how that affects the community and the world around us. And you and I have talked before about an interesting connection between abuse and the problems that come with it, and some of the shootings and other violence that we've seen in society over the last few decades. Would you be willing to talk about that with us and just a little bit about that 

Joan Prittie  10:02  
yes, when domestic violence affects the outside world in a ways, it accounts for a lot of lost productivity at work. It accounts for a lot of disciplinary issues among children at school. There's all kinds of consequences that spin out from domestic violence. But one of the most profound, I think, is the connection between domestic violence and mass shootings. And what we've seen pretty consistently for the last couple of decades is that over half of mass shootings in the United States include somebody shooting a current or former intimate partner. These include some of the large school shootings, or the Pulse nightclub down in Orlando, where he didn't shoot his partner, but there was a history of domestic violence there, but also smaller ones, where perhaps they don't get as much national media attention, fewer people are killed in the event. But this is something that that we continue to see in every town for gun safety, looked at the period from 2009 to 2020. Other earlier periods have been looked at, and the status is always the same, somewhere around 53 54% of these mass shootings. And so I think we still going back to what are new challenges, what are old challenges, we've always had, I think, the challenge in our history of our movement in convincing people that domestic violence isn't just a private matter, right, that it isn't just something that goes on behind closed doors, and is no one else's business. And we are all safer. If we can help to reduce domestic violence, if we can help get firearms out of the hands of people who've been convicted of domestic violence or subjected to protective orders, if we can do those things. We make people just safer in the public spaces that they go. Even apart from making survivors, victims of domestic violence safer as well. 

Nicholas Hill  11:58  
I think we've covered some really important topics here. Two things that I know I personally hadn't thought of. I like what you said at the beginning about this has only been thought of as a problem in recent history only recently has gotten the traction and the momentum that we need. 

Joan Prittie  12:15  
Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, in terms of Western culture, we got a couple of 1000 years of thinking that it's just fine, particularly for men to abuse female partners, really, we can go back to about the 1870s in the United States and begin to see courts changing a little bit with regard to domestic abuse. But it was still the prevailing norm. I call it the curtain doctrine from a court case, where the court had written that if there's no permanent injury inflicted, it's better to draw the curtains and leave the parties to forgive and forget. And that was out of a famous case in North Carolina, that we, you saw it changing where, okay, it's not an absolute right. But we're not going to address it if it occurs in the privacy of home. And we really were kind of under the curtain doctrine legally for about another 100 years. And then we start to see in the 70s, things changing in the US, and then pretty rapidly through the 80s and 90s. So yeah, a very short time of thinking that it's wrong. And we can and should do something about it and apply resources to it and collectively make this something that we're trying to deal with. And for me, that gives me great hope. Because we really haven't been at this very long. And I think we've made tremendous strides in that time period as a movement. So it gives me just wonderful hope for what we're doing. 

Nicholas Hill  13:38  
And let's talk about that. Let's turn a little bit to project safe and some of the work that your organization is doing to help. Can you tell us how project safe began? And a little bit about your approach? And some of the things that you do to help? 

Joan Prittie  13:54  
Sure. Well, our organization was incorporated in 1991. But we don't say that as our start date, because if we did, it would ignore the efforts of a lot of volunteers and stakeholders who did so much going back really, to the mid 70s. And just a lot of folks around the country at that time, who were wanting to address this issue at a time when we didn't even have laws that defined what domestic violence is in Georgia, and we were sort of middle of the pack. Our family violence Act was passed in 1992. Right? So you didn't have the criminalization of acts of domestic abuse until that time. And like I said, that was pretty well the norm. So we started as a network of volunteers. And I think these days, everybody's familiar with Airbnb, it's not so strange to think about somebody coming and crashing on your couch. But if you think back in the 70s, back in the early 80s, the idea that somebody who was trying to flee domestic violence might be coming with their kids in tow and just staying at your house, for as long as you keep them out that was really something unusual and a little bit heroic, you had no police protection, you had certainly no funding in the field, it was really something quite different. And the networks that were formed, again, not just here in Athens all over the country, almost like underground railroad. And if things were people would connect folks to other sources of health, we still operate our hotline with the same landline number that was started back then. And of course, back then it would be routed to somebody's home, just for certain hours in the day, like just during the evenings or on the weekends, that sort of thing until they got more resources. And some of the folks are still around who were those early volunteers, and some of the men recall that they weren't allowed to answer their home phones during the week that their wife maybe was volunteering, because at that point, it was a very gendered approach much more so than we take now. But yeah, we started as a network of safe homes, and then the organizers took the leap and, and got a hold of some space to use it as an emergency shelter and kind of went from there. It's amazing to me when I think about that time, because of how much they did and how they had to operate with very little resources and very little support. And very little respect, I think in a lot of ways, too. I came out in 1999. And even then, once in a while, I would hear someone say, Oh, you're working for that runaway wives program. And that's how people would sometimes refer to it. So thankfully, we have changed quite a bit and grown quite quite a bit during that time. But I came into this work as an attorney, I represented indigent inmates in the state prison system. And I was doing that at a time in the 90s. Right when that family violence Act was passed here in Georgia, where I had the opportunity to assist survivors in prison who had killed their abusive partners, and hadn't had the opportunity back then, to present evidence of abuse and to have that be factored into their trial or their sentencing. And that's how I came into this work. I had also worked with a lot of lot of inmates who had been on the other side who had been the ones committing homicide and in a domestic violence context, right, who had been the abusers in their lives. So I kind of saw it on on both sides. And for me, I very much wanted to apply those lessons that I learned at that time period to the work that project safe was doing. So for example, I wound up identifying and working with 78 women in prison in Georgia at that time, who had killed an abusive partner. Still, to this day, some of the most intense and really horrific violence that I've ever encountered in terms of what they experienced. And yet only one out of those 78 women ever contacted a hotline for domestic violence. Now, granted, there were fewer programs, there was less awareness back then 20 years ago, they didn't know where they could seek help. And what was really telling to me is, it's not that they suffered in total silence, they had all told somebody, they had neighbors who knew or family members or pastors or teachers that their kids school or co workers or that sort of thing. And they either just got bad advice or no advice whatsoever. And so our approach at Project safe has been one to really try to be much more proactive. We read police reports. And we contact the victims who are named in those reports, to make sure that they know about services. We do just a whole lot of community engagement and community education and really as much as we can think of still being a local grassroots organization to try to address that issue. And what does it look like for someone? Let's say that someone is either contacted by your organization or hears about Project safe and reaches out? What does it look like for them kind of day in the life so someone reaches out to receive help? How do those services get applied? Maybe just an example. Yeah. So someone may get a phone call or a letter from folks in our outreach office following a police report review, or someone may just have heard of us in some other way. And the biggest point of entry is our hotline still that same phone number. We like to use the phone we'd like to hear that tone of someone's voice, we'd like to hear the background noise, it gives you so much more context in trying to assist someone than to chat or text we do we do text to with young people, in particular. So someone's going to call that hotline, and they're going to speak to someone. And the first thing we're going to say, once we know they're safe in that moment is Tell me a little bit more about your situation. Right? Just tell me more just what's going on What led you to call? And we're going to try to see what it is that that someone is needing in that moment. And sometimes it's just validation that they're not going crazy. Sometimes it's just maybe referrals to some other organization, we get calls from out of state and other places. And early on, we're trying to find it, you know, what county are you calling from, because you can go down a whole path and you realize somebody's three states away, and it's like, Oops, that wasn't so useful. So we have a variety of services, we have an emergency shelter, it's a small apartment building, people get their own room, if they're single, they have their own private bedroom, if they're coming with kids, then they and their children will share a bedroom and have a bathroom and then two families to an apartment. So some people come in and get emergency shelter. And we can shelter pets on site, which is unusual. And then we have a relationship with our vet school here at the University of Georgia. And they can do fostering and our local humane society can help with that, too. So we really want to help the whole family. If we can do so we have that opportunity. Most of our clients, though, actually don't come into shelter. Last year, we sheltered 130 people. But we worked with 580 people in our outreach office. So we have what we call the Family Protection Center. It's the second Family Protection Center in the US San Diego was first they get all the glory. They do wonderful education and outreach all across the country. But we have the second here in Athens, Georgia. So we have the Special Victims Unit of our local police force. We have folks from prosecutor's offices, we have the sexual assault nurse examiner program, that we have project safe advocates, all housed in one place, which makes it much more convenient for someone to access services. So we work with about four and a half, five times more people through our office, we have walk in hours twice a week where someone can come in and sit down with an advocate without an appointment, or we could make that appointment for them over the phone. And so we're gonna see what is it that somebody needs in that moment, we have support groups virtual and in person for the emotional support piece, we can help people access counseling, some people need very practical things. I left my abuser already on behind on rent, you know, how can you help we do a lot of that sort of assistance. But it's really just a very individualized process of trying to see where someone's out what is it that they need? And how can we help or who can we refer them to, if it exceeds the limits of what we're able to do. And so some people, it's as quick and short as a phone call. Others it's weeks or months in an emergency shelter, and then perhaps longer term housing, we had 25 people that we had in our transitional housing programs last year. For others, it's coming in repeatedly at our outreach office. We don't have the resources to help everybody with this needs. But we do you help folks with divorces with child custody situations, when we can we help people get stalking orders temporary protective orders for dating violence or domestic violence, we do a good deal of that. So it's just what does someone need. And one of the things we like to remind our new staff when they're just starting out is when someone tells you they're experiencing abuse and asks you for help. The impulse is think you're gonna fix it, right? And we'd like to say you'd like to think you're there at the finish line, Oh, someone's gonna leave this relationship. They're gonna start over, they're done. But the reality is that it is much more of a longer and harrowing process to try to disentangle from a relationship. And so really, when someone says, I'm dealing with this, and I need help, you are now at mile marker, point five with half a banana and a cup of water is someone who is running an ultra marathon. And the stat is that people leave an abusive relationship seven to 10 times. 

Nicholas Hill  24:39  
So it sounds like there are a lot of different things. Project safe is doing a help and it sounds more importantly, like the care that you're providing is very personalized to the story to the person to the needs at that time. Is that right? 

Joan Prittie  24:58  
Yeah, we really do. Besides that individualized response is part of our values. We shelter men, we shelter trans folks, we have sheltered a husband and wife at the same time because her act was threatening the whole family. And it's like, yeah, bringing the whole family. So we really try to see folks for who they are. We also shelter minors, which is unusual. But that happens a lot to kids, maybe leaving a home, that's not great when they're young, and then they go into a relationship, they're living with a boyfriend or girlfriend, and then that turns out to be unhealthy and unsafe. And yet going back home really isn't an option. 

Nicholas Hill  25:39  
I know that something else that project safe has is an initiative called breaking silence. And I believe the purpose of breaking silence is to help teens to recognize and avoid unhealthy relationships. I'm just curious if you could tell us a little bit about that. And what is something that a teen might do to recognize some of those trends or behaviors? 

Joan Prittie  26:07  
Yeah, so we launched this actually 10 years ago in October. So back in 2012, and we gave it a different name, just because if teens have heard of Project safe, they think it's for their mom or their grandmother. And so we gave it a different name to try to separate that a little bit. But we do a lot of educational work, we do stuff on social media, but a lot of stuff in the classroom, to try to teach young people about healthy and unhealthy relationships. And then we operate that text line. And last year, we had just a little shy of 200 text conversations on that text line with young people. And so with that, we're trying to either answer their questions, help them better perceive what's going on, but also then maybe connect them to a good source of support, or help or encourage them to talk to a trusted adult in real life to write. But certainly part of it is to try to help young people recognize what's healthy, and maybe what's not in a relationship. And it can be hard, especially when we're young, because those relationships feel so intense, right. And a lot of those feelings are very new and very strong, but want to help teens recognize some of the non violent signs. So things like extreme jealousy of monitoring behavior, right controlling behavior around their virtual life. So someone who needs to be constantly looking at their accounts, or someone who wants a shared account, that sort of thing. Someone who wants access to their passwords, and that sort of thing. Those can certainly be red flags, that the relationship isn't going to go in a safe direction. Certainly sexual pressure, before sexual encounters, or really pressuring someone to send nude pictures or other things like that can be an early warning sign. So we want to help teens see those things and try to find ways that they can keep themselves safe. And again, to try to find adults in their life that they can trust. 

Nicholas Hill  28:18  
You talk about that as being something that's important for teens. And obviously I'm hearing things that could be attributable to any relationship. 

Joan Prittie  28:27  
Absolutely. Are there warning signs across the lifespan, right? Those kinds of things can be, you know, how does someone respond when they don't get their way? Right? So when they aren't in control of the situation, right? So a lot of times people say, Well, they're just so charming. They're so wonderful there. Yeah. How was it when it's not going there? Their way. 

Nicholas Hill  28:47  
And when things get derailed. 

Joan Prittie  28:49  
Exactly. And that can be another another good warning sign. So and that's something a lot of times, there is a pretty big gap between when you might first experience those sorts of things. And when there might be an act of physical or sexual assault that would really be recognizable as, Oh, my God, this was an awful thing that happened to me. But if people really reflect on it and think about it, they can go back months or years prior and be like, oh, yeah, there were these other signs. And a lot of times what people will do is adjust their own behavior. So they noticed that their partner doesn't like when they dress a certain way, or when they spend too much time with friends or when they get too excited or too committed at work or those kinds of things. And then you'll see people self edit their behavior, really to comply and to make their partner happy. It can be so insidious that they don't really realize that they're like under the surface a little bit. They've just started doing it over time slowly can really take a long time for somebody to realize exactly how dangerous the situation they're in.

Nicholas Hill  30:00  
When you think about your work and some of the successes that you've seen the survivors that you've been able to help the people that you've been able to point in the right direction, I know that project safe also does trainings and talks about those topics. Are there any stories that stick out in your mind as something that was either a pivotal moment in your work, or maybe a success story that you would be willing to share? 

Joan Prittie  30:27  
Gosh, there are a lot of stories that stick out in my mind. And most of them aren't mine to share. Right? So that's tricky. I remember some years ago that one of the kids that we had had in our shelter who came in with their mother, that as an adult, they had actually saved somebody's life when a medical emergency. And I remember thinking, gosh, that's just like a movie. Right? This kid that was in a really serious situation, then is able to grow up and do this wonderful thing as an adult. And I can think of a lot of things like that where I think, wow, because somebody's got an opportunity to get out of an unsafe situation. And yes, that's partly because of our resources and what we were able to do, but it's also so much a product of people's own resiliency, and their own spirit in their own strength. All right, that they can do that. But I think we've we've gotten to witness just a lot of really wonderful stories like that, where people that you just think they've had everything stacked against them. And yet, then they're able to go on. And maybe it's not saving a human life, maybe it's just having a really great career or really great family, having a love that is safe and healthy and affirming. Right. And I think I've been doing this long enough now, where there are folks who maybe came in as children, and now we're adults, and from time to time we hear from them. I heard recently, from one of our interns. This was a young woman who had interned with us as a college student cache, I think it was probably about six years ago, we were really working on criminalizing strangulation in Georgia. And we're successful in creating a felony strangulation statute as part of our aggravated assault statute. We were doing a lot of education and awareness around that, including trying to help people change their language, because it's so common to refer to strangulation is choking. We choke on food and strangulation really is such a unique act of abuse, 

Nicholas Hill  32:50  
Just the use of the word it creates like a reaction, you say the word strangulation and it really makes me feel like this is an aggressive action. 

Joan Prittie  32:58  
Exactly. You don't just get in a fight randomly with a friend and then reach out and grab their throat, right, it really is a significant kind of a thing. So anyway, this intern had been interning at Project safe being a part of those efforts with the statute and then with the community education while she had gone on to work as a flight attendant after she graduated and then got involved with her airline in in training, flight attendants. And she sends me this email last month, saying that she got the airline to change the language from choking to strangulation, and that 10s of 1000s of flight attendants now would be trained about strangulation and its importance in the context of domestic violence. And it was such a out of the blue kind of thing to hear from this young woman and to hear that she had carried these lessons from her internship moving into a whole other kind of a career. And that's really cool to think about, because we work with, say 10 to 15 interns a semester. So you figure about 30 students a year, every year, and then they move on, and most of them aren't going to have careers really specifically related to domestic violence, some will. But you wonder, what lessons are they carrying? What are they doing, whether it's a neighbor, or a colleague at work, or even something larger like that, that she did. And so sometimes we just have to think about planting seeds. And knowing that some of this stuff is growing, even if we don't see it. 

Nicholas Hill  34:36  
I know that for every success story that you hear there are dozens that are just out there. They're living a good life, they're living well or they have that career that you're talking about. And when I found your organization for the show, I was reading some of the over 100 testimonials about people that have received your services that are doing amazing things because of that. As Joan for my last question, I am just curious if someone out there is listening to this and wants to get involved, they want to help either project safe directly, or help to further this cause and your mission? What is something that they can do to help? 

Joan Prittie  35:17  
Well, a couple of things. One is if they're wanting to help project safe and wanting to also affirm a positive or healthy relationship in their life, we have a campaign called Who are you thinking of? They can go to Project dash safe.org. And they'll find there, who are you thinking of or way to is the acronym, but what we ask people to do is, think of a healthy or positive relationship in your life. Think of a number that's symbolic to that relationship, a person's birthdate or how long you've known them or some other number, and then donate that number monthly or quarterly to project safe online. And will let your honoree know and you will be contributing to our mission and our work. And we have so many wonderful way to stories where people are honoring, you know, they give $25 a month because they've been in their relationship 25 years, or they give 1295 a month, because that's the amount of money they pay for a music subscription they share with their closest sibling, or they roll all their kids birth dates together and add up the number. And that's the number they give. But there's just so many things. And we'd love to emphasize the wonderful, loving, healing hopeful relationships that people have and how we can honor those, but also support the work for folks who are not experiencing that. So that's one thing. And I certainly invite folks to do that project dash safe.org. The other thing is that most communities of any size do have a domestic violence organization. So no matter where somebody is listening to this show, they can look in their own community and find an organization. Some of them combined domestic violence and sexual assault or child abuse. Some of them are standalone, but I would really invite them to get to know their own local organization, and see how they can help how they might volunteer or donate to that organization or get involved in some other way. 

Nicholas Hill  37:25  
Joan, I just want to end by saying thank you for your time today and for teaching us about what project safe is doing. I know that I'm excited to continue to follow your work and see the progress that's being made. And really just wish you and your team the best in the rest of 2022. 

Joan Prittie  37:45  
Well, Nick, this has been my pleasure, and I'm delighted that you were able to find us and I look forward to following more episodes of your show as well.

Nicholas Hill  38:09  
Today's show was directed and produced by me with music from Alex Grohl special thanks to our guests for their time and insight. If you like today's episode, please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and consider leaving a review as it will help us to spread the word about the show. You can view more information about today's episode online at acts of impact.com Thank you for listening